The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (XBOX360)

[GamerDad]

Dave Long's The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (XBOX360) article - http://www.gamerdad.com/detail.cfm?itemID=3169

[momGamer]

I think you hit it dead in the black, Dave.

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

A fair review

I am glad you stuck a lot of effort in the Kid Factor. Quite often I find games rated a bit on the high side, but OB is defenitely not one of those.
I keep finding new things that make me wonder why this game was rated 'T'.

But rating aside, the game is very good and a lot of fun. I just wish they'd stuck as much effort in the Main Quest as they did in the Side Quests, which are far more entertaining...

[Freakhead]

I have more fun hearing what others do than playing it. A bud said he got turned into a vampire in the game. Later he found out how to get rid of the vampirism. It had become a nuisance so he was excited about that. I think he couldn't go out in the day or something. And villagers sometimes attacked on sight. Sounds awesome, but then I heard the quest to get rid of the vampirism alone takes like 8 hours and that about sums up why I can't get into the game. The game just seems too tedious.

[txa1265]

I really love that Kid Factor ... I think Oblivion is a wonderful game, not without some flaws, but still a great experience. The pacing is slow, the main story is insignificant, the combat is better than Morrowind, but .... it is a fantastic experience composed of many little moments. When the AI works, the quest is nice, and everything just comes togethar.

Mike

[m_hael]

I'm 70 hours in and still loving it... best game I've played in a long time.

review seemed fair enough.

btw - if people with 360's want to add me its Britguy77

andy

[GamerDad]

Well done. The ESRB is just not equipped to handle the vagueries of this kind of gameplay.

[Dave Long]

Thanks everyone. I agree with Andrew that the ESRB simply isn't equipped to rate something like this. However, I think they could easiliy have looked at the Assassin angle along with the DOOM-like imagery of Oblivion itself and slapped an M on without any complaints.

[txa1265]

I found another interesting review for Oblivion here. It also tackles the rating issue, saying

This game is rated Teen and I don’t know why it was not awarded a Mature rating.

and backing it up with

There’s violence (-4), and blood (but it can be disabled +1) when you’re slashing things with a weapon. There’s swearing (-5) and blaspheming (-5) too. There are nine gods in this world so I’m not sure if they’re blaspheming their gods or our God. There are sexual references as in live in couples (-3) and there’s an NPC who asks you about a fine for necrophilia. Magic is used heavily (-5), it’s optional to use it but it will be used on you regardless. On a positive note the Mages guild (for the most part) is against necromancy. With the different races there is prejudice in this game and many of the races hate each other (-1.5). Some characters tend to sleep in their underwear, I have noticed this with female characters. (-3.5) Finally, I was happy to see no occult symbols in this game but there is an occult type religion/worship.

before concluding

I’ll be the first to admit that it’s fun and addictive but it does have quite a laundry list of appropriateness issues. I recommend this game for mature players only.

Now this is getting harshed up in some of my RPG haunts, but generally people are (a) taking the popular anti-Christian attitude and (b) failing to realize that all of thpse 'issues' are in the context of the fact that the game should have been M. People for some reason don't get it when someone criticizes a game within the context of the given rating. For example, using Decapitated heads as weapons in Blade of Darkness doesn't bother me because it is a M game, but I'd be all over it if they rated the game T. It is amazing to me how many otherwise intelligent people simply don't get that.

Mike

[MrAndyPuppy]

Now this is getting harshed up in some of my RPG haunts, but generally people are (a) taking the popular anti-Christian attitude and (b) failing to realize that all of thpse 'issues' are in the context of the fact that the game should have been M. People for some reason don't get it when someone criticizes a game within the context of the given rating. For example, using Decapitated heads as weapons in Blade of Darkness doesn't bother me because it is a M game, but I'd be all over it if they rated the game T. It is amazing to me how many otherwise intelligent people simply don't get that.

Yes, that's the kind of thing that frustrates me no end. For instance, Shadow Man with its huge voodoo overtones, or San Andreas with its criminal elements, are rated appropriately such that the appropriate purchaser/gamer can deal with the content on their level, but games that do not get rated properly are the ones that are most easily abused it seems.

And if anyone criticises it for not being rated appropriately they're booed out of the office with cries of "but it's not as bad as game X"...

[m_hael]

I think that peoples opinions of what is "mature" and "teen" are somewhat different.

personally I think oblivion does have some mature elements however the ESRB judge the game as a whole and NOT by the specifics that article brings up, if a game contains "some" mature elements then it will be rated as "teen" with slight addendums like "contains some nudity"... until they judge it has more nudity that is allowed under "teen" it will remain "teen"

the bulk of the game (>90%) has ZERO mature content.

[momGamer]

And that is the problem in a nutshell, right there. Do yourself a favor and go to the ESRB - the descriptors for this game are "Blood and Gore, Language, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence". Now, go look up Metal Gear Solid Subsistence. It's rated M, and it's descriptors are "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Language, Sexual Themes".

This is a quote from their site: "ESRB ratings have two equal parts: rating symbols suggest age appropriateness for the game and content descriptors indicate elements in a game that may have triggered a particular rating and/or may be of interest or concern. To take full advantage of the ESRB rating system, it's important to check both the rating symbol (on the front of the box) and the content descriptors (on the back)."

You and I both know damned skippy sure that Metal Gear Solid is an M. It deserves it on just about every level. On the other hand, we've got a very similar list applied to a T-rated game. This is confusing as all heck to parents. It doesn't help when you watch your kid walk into a room and are staring at that corpse hanging from those vines off the ceiling.

There is nothing published anywhere that I've been able to find that tells people what the difference is between a "T" level of Blood and Gore, and an "M" level of blood and gore. That's what I thought we were here for. And from the standpoint of several of us, there were elements of this game that cross the line. There is no way you can tell me that two hour video they watch to rate a game contains all the stuff my son has seen in his currently 90+ hours in this game. Nor does it address the things you do, rather than just see.

Oh, and just as an FYI, this is the same stuff that earned Fable an M, for "Blood, Sexual Themes, Strong Language, Violence". And if anyone can please tell me what the difference is, I'd be glad to hear it.

Even if the parents are paying attention, this rating is cause for concern. A T-rating will earn a game a free pass into a lot of households for some very young kids. For people who are just buying this for Jr's birthday and then letting him disappear into his room, this is something to worry about. Even if your kid doesn't go to the House of Earthly Delights.

[m_hael]

true - the ESRB definitely have problems.... a few years ago we had to remove a scene from one of our games simply because it involved ass crack... for some reason the view of ass crack meant we had to go to Mature which we didn't want to do.

we removed it.. we got the teen rating however according to the "definitions" supplied by the ESRB the scene was fine... they simply didn't like it.

[GamerDad]

I think that peoples opinions of what is "mature" and "teen" are somewhat different.

Definitely. You're absolutely right (more on this later).

the bulk of the game (>90%) has ZERO mature content.

But this is wrong. The point is that any Mature content should be rated as such, simply because the only parents who pay attention to ratings - I mean care about them strongly - expect that rating to be perfectly accurate. It hurts the ESRB any time any one can reasonably question their rating, so erring on the side of being "too careful" would better fit the ESA and IDGA's agendas (a responsible face on the gaming industry). It would also better follow our agenda.

Even if the parents are paying attention, this rating is cause for concern. A T-rating will earn a game a free pass into a lot of households for some very young kids. For people who are just buying this for Jr's birthday and then letting him disappear into his room, this is something to worry about. Even if your kid doesn't go to the House of Earthly Delights.

Not to call you out Colleen, because you're right, but this line in the sand IS as hazy as m_hael suggests. I know a lot of parents who wouldn't blink at Oblivion's content. And I know one parent who didn't like your Halo 2 review because she felt the game, with all those death animations and guns, deserved the M it got.

Does this mean you messed up with Halo 2?

No. I state that emphatically. You made a judgement call and then justified it with a reasoned argument. Any parent who complains about your review can be reminded, with direct quotes, your Kid Factor content review and warnings. The ESRB didn't do that with Oblivion - mainly because they can't (justify it like we do) - so I cut them some slack and stack this in the column about why the ESRB and parents need us.

But if you ask me? I think Bethesda should have submitted Oblivion and asked for an M-Rating. They put M-Rated content in and these are not as subjective as movies (or as accepted these days) so I'd prefer to call for more corporate responsibility here. Bethesda shouldn't want ANY parent fooled by an unclear rating and frankly it'd be easier for the designers to help the ESRB before the fact, rather than after.

Note: I'm assuming a lot. Maybe Bethesda did argue it.

[m_hael]

I hate to call you out Andrew but... if ANY mature content meant a product HAD to be classed as "mature" then we'd have an aweful lot of "M" rated products and almost NO "T" and below products.

as per my example above... is seeing someones ass crack a reason to make something "M"... in my opinion NO.... is seeing someone get eviscerated by a large sword and watching their guts fall to the ground... yes.... sadly the ESRB see both as the same thing and count only "instants" as points towards an "M" rather than any occurence being an M.

I agree with their methods to a point BUT.. I think certain things should be given MORE points than others on a morality scale... but even then a game reviewed for a aetheist parent living in downtown LA would still seem extremely harsh when viewed by a god-fearing parent in the bible belt.

The ESRB tried to implement a system but didn't tell anyone else the rules they use. Without the rulebase no one knows the scales and thus no one understands why game X gets rating "T" but involves murder/blood/sex while game Y gets "M" rating but involves comedic violence and butt crack.

BTW - the IGDA is largely a group of people wanting to take advantage of free beer... trust me I've been to MANY of their "meetings"... I wonder if Nvidia/ATI know how much beer their "contributions" paid for... some people near the top do some work... others just wake up with hangovers.